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Chris Tuckner
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Loc: Hastings/Isle MN
Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: JoePenaz]
#273807 - 01/09/06 08:52 PM

I agree with the accuracy factor regarding small caliber handguns. It is true double taps are much easier to repeat using a .22, .380. or .32. I did not say however that "Knockdown power" means knocking something off their feet. I am talking about colateral damage to surrounding organs caused by hydrostatic shock. It is that system "Shock" that you see when a deer gets shot...the one that makes him hunch and quiver. That is what a large caliber does. A .22 does not. You will not convine me otherwise. You can double tap all you want, I will still make my first shot count (Hopefully), and you can do it your way. Joe, you bought a 10MM for deer hunting. Would you use that same .380 if it was legal? Would you use a .22 or .32?
That is all I am saying.
Tuck

--------------------
Chris Tuckner
www.idaguides.com



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Chris Tuckner
IDA Pro Staff Director

Reged: 05/21/01
Posts: 10185
Post Bucks: $5.42
Loc: Hastings/Isle MN
Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: James Holst]
#273819 - 01/09/06 09:20 PM

This is more to the point of what I want to convey:

The two most important factors in stopping a bad guy are: 1) where you place your bullets, and 2) what organs your bullets penetrate and damage.

How much penetration is adequate? According to the nation's most prominent wound ballistics experts, your bullets should penetrate at least 12 inches of soft tissue. Penetration beyond 18 inches is considered too much, and a less penetrating design should be considered to optimize the cartridge's wounding potential.

But with small caliber cartridges such as .22 LR, .25 ACP, and .32 ACP (and sometimes .380 ACP), you're better off selecting a non-expanding bullet that might exceed 18 inches of penetration than to choose a bullet that expands and underpenetrates. When a bullet expands, the increased diameter and non-aerodynamic shape acts like a parachute to quickly slow and stop the bullet as it penetrates flesh. These tiny bullets lack the mass and momentum to achieve adequate penetration after they expand.

Bullets that meet the 12-18 inch penetration guidelines have proven to be very effective in police shooting incidents that have been investigated by reputable researchers who use the scientific method. These findings have been verified and validated by other distinguished wound ballistics researchers who've fully reviewed the data. These findings are far superior in validity to the Marshall/Sanow "one-shot stopping power" junk-science that is published in newsstand gun magazines.

There are a lot of people who've been deluded into believing that legitimate wound ballistics researchers simply shoot bullets into ordnance gelatin and ignore shooting results that show how effective these bullets are in stopping an attacker. This kind of faulty research would be incredibly absurd, wouldn't it? Do you really believe these researchers are that incompetent or ignorant? Their work wouldn't pass peer review or be accepted as valid by the scientific community. However, these scientists don't publish their work in newsstand gun magazines for financial gain, and they really don't care what the general population chooses to believe. These researchers publish their findings in professional journals, where it's available to people who are truly interested in the data.

The concepts of placement and penetration are simple -- too simple for some people to accept -- but these factors are the most important in stopping a homicidal attack.

What bullet is best? It's one you can shoot accurately under stress that's capable of penetrating deeply enough to inflict fatal hemorrhage and reliably functions in your gun. There's nothing mystical or complicated about handgun ammunition wounding effectiveness. It's simple: placement and penetration

Tuck

--------------------
Chris Tuckner
www.idaguides.com



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BriankAdministrator
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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Chris Tuckner]
#273843 - 01/09/06 10:16 PM

Backing up a bit....

Quote:

I've heard of the 500 & seen it ! It's fasinating but never shot one. Looks so huge I thought it was a novelty at first.




Although I've never shot one...I did watch a guy at Bill's a few weeks ago. No Double Tapping with that gun!!

Joe and Chris, before I get into the best calibur issue...aren't you going to say how pretty my wifes ex-Kel-Tec is?

I have notice a couple different thoughts on carry besides cal. There are the folks that (hope you don't mind if I quote you Jon...) carry "cowboy stay", in the open all the time. Then there's the folks that want it mostly concealed, but if it pops out into veiw once in a while...that's ok. And lastly the people that don't ever want to anyone to know that they are packing. I would PERSONALLY fall into the later...but I yap too much on-line to really fit in that group 100% .

It seems like the first two groups lean towards the larger frame guns and the last group leans towards the mouse guns. Sorry Joe...no scientific data for that, just my observations.

Last thing...Chris, I think you were leaning towards the Kel tec .380 being junk for CC and Joe was leaning towards it being the best if that's the biggist cal gun you feel comfortable with...was I close on this?

--------------------
Brian Klawitter
In-Depth Outdoors Multi Media Director
Trophy Catfishing and Sturgeon Adventures


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Chris Tuckner
IDA Pro Staff Director

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Posts: 10185
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Loc: Hastings/Isle MN
Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Briank]
#273854 - 01/09/06 10:48 PM

Junk?
No.
I had to go back and look at my posts to see if I insinuated that or not. You for one questioned the .380 and the "Wet leather Jacket". Do you think, or more precisely, would you bet your life that you could get 12 to 18" penetration with that round on someone wearing a heavy coat in the winter? With a sweater or heavy sweatshirt underneath? Like I said to you in a PM, under the right circumstances, I would carry a .380, and I plan to buy one. Summer time, when clothing for a perp is not an issue, and fewer clothes for me to conceal is! A .380 would work out fine for me with the proper ammo in a gun that can handle a "Plus P" rounds.

--------------------
Chris Tuckner
www.idaguides.com



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TheodoreNugget
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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Chris Tuckner]
#273882 - 01/09/06 11:49 PM

You guys really have a great post going here. Backing up a bit I would only have to add that the most important thing about "stopping a bad guy" is to recognize that he/she is a bad guy to begin with.

Last year I was leaving a mall (yeah, I admit it.. I had to go to a mall). I happened to be walking out right behind this small frail looking thing with hip huggers & a cell phone to her ear. (Y - she was kinda cute, but really I was walking to my car..no really..I was..)

After walking to my car, which seemed forever cause I parked far away..she walked to her car 3 cars from me, oblivious to me or anyone else around her. Her lack of awareness of her surroundings put her in danger without her even knowing it.. I think most people don't train themselves to be aware. It's the "never thought it could happen in a small town like this attitude"

If she had some awareness, she could have created some space, some distance or some distraction like altering her cell phone conversation to reflect details had she thought she was being followed. Luckily I'm the good guy.

There's my 2 cents. Keep the change.

--------------------
John


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BriankAdministrator
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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: TheodoreNugget]
#273946 - 01/10/06 08:18 AM

You are so right TN!

Being aware of your surroundings in the first step in "not being a victim" and likely the easiest.

When I heard Joe talking about his Refuse to Be a Victim class...I thought WOW! this guy is paranoid....after I started thinking about it a bit...some simple things could keep a person out of trouble without having to rely on "is my round going to penetrate deep enough"...which is what everyone should do...wheather you carry or not.

Glancing under your car as you walk to it, looking in the back seat before you get in, noticing the second exit of the building you are going into. It all goes back to am I a sheep or a sheep dog post...

PS Sorry Joe, I didn't mean to sound like I insulted you...but the first time I heard you talk about this...I had the same thought that "I think" many people have..."why should I even think about those things...it can't happen to me in my little town". It does and it can...Hastings MN and Hudson WI comes to mind right off the bat.

--------------------
Brian Klawitter
In-Depth Outdoors Multi Media Director
Trophy Catfishing and Sturgeon Adventures


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BriankAdministrator
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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Briank]
#273948 - 01/10/06 08:21 AM

Quote:

A .380 would work out fine for me with the proper ammo in a gun that can handle a "Plus P" rounds.




Go Core-Bon! (thanks RN )

--------------------
Brian Klawitter
In-Depth Outdoors Multi Media Director
Trophy Catfishing and Sturgeon Adventures


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JoePenaz
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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Chris Tuckner]
#274185 - 01/10/06 05:15 PM

Chris,
I will and you will (do it our way) I respect your knowledge about ballistics. You surely know more than me. I would hunt deer with a .22 if I could. What a challenge? (But it will not shoot back if I did not kill it with the first shot). If I miss on the back up or the first shot does not kill, I may be dead. I would never carry anything smaller than a .380 you know that I said that in my class.
I have shot personally with several hundreds of people in the last 3 years. Accuracy is the real problem that we need to deal with it first. After I do a class I get many calls about what ammo to get the most out of my gun. I rarely get a calls about how do I get more training so I do not hit some one I do not want to hit. (Remember I shoot with these people so I know how they shoot) Too many people in my opinion feel they can make up for having to shoot twice by having a bigger gun. I have heard “with what I carry I will not need a back up shot” I got news. If you do not go out (as I do) from time to time and run for 5 minuets as fast as you can and then shoot, you have no idea how hard it is to hit something when you are overcome by fear and adrenaline. I think it is good to talk about bullets, I just do not think we talk enough about shooting and the need for it.
I have talked to three of the owners of Ranges in the twin cities. The increase in business since the bill past in no way shows that people are shooting any where near as much as it should. So I feel too much time is spent on size of gun and bullets and not enough on shooting skills. If I at any time seem to be lecturing I do not mean to. I am not an expert on guns or bullets I am some what an expert on seeing people shoot. It’s not good. Side bar: Women ask for training about 10 to 1 over men. Of the men only half of them ever show up at all when they schedule a shooting and rarely never again. I think we (men ) think its in our genes to be good with a gun. To be fair I also teach Bowling and women also take more lessons than men as a rule. Most students just barely get all the shots on the target at 15 feet with my .22 borrowed to them.

--------------------
Joe Penaz


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Chris Tuckner
IDA Pro Staff Director

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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: JoePenaz]
#274264 - 01/10/06 08:56 PM

Joe, if you are looking for an argument, you are not going to get one out of me. I agree 100% with virtually everything you have noted above. The question was "What do I think about the .380?" I think I backed up my reasoning for going with the .40. I am not going to argue the fact that you shoot MUCH more than I do, and the fact that you deal with people every day that don't know which end of the gun to aim down range. I think you may have read WAY too much into what I was saying. I made my comments based on my background in the military, law enforcement, and many years of competitive shooting. A lot different from the backgrounds of a lot of the people you work with day in and day out. I know it does not make me an expert, but I am far from a novice. I feel I know enough to make an informed decision on what I like in a CC gun. You made fine points in your class, and I am sure your insight will be appreciated by all who view this forum. Again, I will own a .380. It just won't be my primary CC gun. Thats all.
Tuck

--------------------
Chris Tuckner
www.idaguides.com



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BriankAdministrator
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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Chris Tuckner]
#274282 - 01/10/06 09:49 PM
Attachment (11 downloads)

I don't recall for sure...but I don't think Joe used the .380 for front line protection either. Help me out here Joe...
I believe it was a Glock xx in 9mm was your normal carry...I maybe thinking of someone else...but don't you carry two?

I have to find a upload a video that a slider friend sent me...and post it here...I'll be back!

--------------------
Brian Klawitter
In-Depth Outdoors Multi Media Director
Trophy Catfishing and Sturgeon Adventures


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BriankAdministrator
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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Briank]
#274288 - 01/10/06 10:02 PM

Here's a good reason to "keep it simple".

500 S&W or it's nick name....No Double Taps...click here for video

PS I think the video was cut short to avoid the language...

Thanks SliderFishing for the entertainment!

--------------------
Brian Klawitter
In-Depth Outdoors Multi Media Director
Trophy Catfishing and Sturgeon Adventures


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Chris Tuckner
IDA Pro Staff Director

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Loc: Hastings/Isle MN
Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Briank]
#274294 - 01/10/06 10:18 PM

Ouch! I bet his head feels like !

--------------------
Chris Tuckner
www.idaguides.com



Edited by EYE-GUIDE (01/10/06 11:05 PM)


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Chris Tuckner
IDA Pro Staff Director

Reged: 05/21/01
Posts: 10185
Post Bucks: $5.42
Loc: Hastings/Isle MN
Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Briank]
#274307 - 01/10/06 11:10 PM

This is fun, watch the video, and when it gets close to the time the gun goes off, tap the pause button on and off very quickly. You can actually catch the gun moving before the sound, and see it hit Santa's head!

--------------------
Chris Tuckner
www.idaguides.com



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Sliderfishn
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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Chris Tuckner]
#274316 - 01/10/06 11:35 PM

I thought that after reading this thread the video says it all.
Can not double tap a gun you can not handle.

Ron

--------------------
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.


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BriankAdministrator
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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Sliderfishn]
#274326 - 01/10/06 11:52 PM

Ron? I'm thinking it would be hard to single tap?

--------------------
Brian Klawitter
In-Depth Outdoors Multi Media Director
Trophy Catfishing and Sturgeon Adventures


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Chris Tuckner
IDA Pro Staff Director

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Loc: Hastings/Isle MN
Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Briank]
#274418 - 01/11/06 08:25 AM

Whadya mean! That was a double tap! Once on the target, and once on the head!


--------------------
Chris Tuckner
www.idaguides.com



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Sliderfishn
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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Chris Tuckner]
#274437 - 01/11/06 09:00 AM

It hurts right here

Tuck,
That was a good one

Ron

--------------------
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.


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EyeJacker
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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Jon Jordan]
#274706 - 01/11/06 07:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If I told you I will give you $10,000 dollars to the best group at 21 feet would you use your Glock 27 40 S&W or my 22LR auto? Give some though to this.





Great post and I agree with evey thing you wrote. I'll take the 22LR.

-J.




Me too!


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JoePenaz
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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... new [Re: Briank]
#275144 - 01/12/06 04:02 PM

I do carry two guns when I carry my Glock 26. That is because I carry the P3AT all the time and I feel naked with out it. I carry the 26 when I go into what I call high threat area's and when I am with other people I would defend. (this is rare) My wife also carries.
Just a side bar I have another class at Hudson Rod and Gun club the 22nd of this month. 10:00 AM $100 only as I have a good size class. My normal IDA price is $115 so this is a great price for the class. I am going to demo the Laser trainer I am a distributor for also. They will have food.

--------------------
Joe Penaz


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BriankAdministrator
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Re: Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best.... [Re: JoePenaz]
#275310 - 01/12/06 08:44 PM

Cancel your class on the 22nd Joe and come up to our Get ToGether on Mille Lacs! Many of us will be up there Friday, Saturday (big event day) and returning home on Sunday.

I think I can get Eye Guide to make a jigging stick out of a cleaning rod!

I would like to see how your equipment works...since I have a 26 and shoot slightly to the left.

I cuss at my 26 everytime I go shooting...out of frustration. I know it's not the gun...it's me. I've acepted this. To aid in this frustration...I now take rolaids before I go shooting!

--------------------
Brian Klawitter
In-Depth Outdoors Multi Media Director
Trophy Catfishing and Sturgeon Adventures


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