Prieser
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I will be in the market for a new riffle in the near future. It will be mainly for BIG game, such as elk and what not. For a couple of years all the talk was about the short mags and the super short mags. More that likely I will be looking at the .300 Win Mag or the .338. Are these "short" guns any good or should I stick with the old standard. I was also told not to put any scope on smaller than a 4x12. Any thoughts. Thanks in advance for the help. 
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B.Peterson
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Personally i would stick with the standard.
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FISH TO LIVE,LIVE TO FISH MILLE LACS!
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AlvinMack
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Quote:
I was also told not to put any scope on smaller than a 4x12.
Whoever told you that I would really like to know the logic behind it. The venerable Leupold 3x9-40 is probably mounted on more big game rifles than most. As far as what chambering to go with for Elk I don't think you can go wrong with either the 300 Winchester or the 338 Winnie. Winchester is out of the biz so finding a new M70 will be like pulling teeth.
I'm not much for tupperware guns, so given the choice I will go with the Ruger 77MKII. But I also realize that ppl like me who prefer steel and wood are a dying breed. CZ's are a very qaulity made rifle, they are a bit bulky, but worth looking at. Remington 700's are still a reliable rifle, but ever since they implemented the J-lock they won't be receiving my biz anymore..
I'm sure you will get several responses in regard to this thread. If I could offer one opinion, it would be this, stay away from muzzle brakes, if you arent comfortable shooting what you have, then downsize and stay away from brakes, your ears will thank you for it
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Prieser
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The venerable Leupold 3x9-40
I will go with the Ruger 77MKII.
I have a Nikon 3x9 on my 7MM Ruger (sorry, stainless and synthetic) I really like the Ruger and I was definetly going to look into them for the chambering I want. I also agree on the muzzle break, they suck. 
I more than likely will stick with the standard chambering, just more curious about the short mags.
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"The biggest thing to remember is 'Don't Panic'"
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Marbles
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One consideration is when you're on the elk hunting trip and realize that you lost your ammo pouch in the 3 feet of snow, what caliber rounds ma and pa's hardware store is going to have in stock. It would suck to spend a lot of time driving around looking for ammo when a person could be in the woods. Though the shorts are becoming more popular, the standards are more easily found on the racks in most places. Good luck choosing.
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690reece
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I would stay with the venerable 300 Win. Mag as a do-all rifle. I purchase a Browning A-Bolt 10 years ago and have never second guessed the decision! I also have a Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10X50 on it. I would recommend that you spend a little bit extra on the glass as you can only shoot what you can see! I agree, for most hunting, that the 3-9 power is adequate for most situations. You may look to the 4-12 or the 4.5-14 for open country hunting or strictly out West, but I feel that the 3-9(3.5-10) is a GREAT all around choice.  Good Luck! 690reece
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AlvinMack
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Excellent point Marbles! That is another reason to go with standard ammo, the reality is these shorts mags are advertised to have less recoil as one of the big selling points. Well that is a load of horsehockey because recoil is based off a mathematic calculation which is comprised of following factors: Bullet Weight in Grains: Muzzle Velocity,Powder Weight,Gun Weight (example 9.25):
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Prieser
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Quote:
mathematic calculation which is comprised of following factors: Bullet Weight in Grains: Muzzle Velocity,Powder Weight,Gun Weight (example 9.25):
UMMM, can you repeat all the parts about what you said about those things.  JK
Recoil is relitive to wether or not you're sitting at a range or shooting at a 7x7.   In other words, I don't ever remember shooting at any animal and saying wow, that hurt. 
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muskyman
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But......Ballistics on the short mags are better. That's what the big rave about them is, from what I've read. If I remember right it has something to do with the casing being shorter so it burns faster, thus improving the performance. Mac can probably spit out some numbers at you or give you a link.
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Fishin4u
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I have a .300 weatherby vangard chambered for .300 winnie's. i really like that gun. doesnt kick and it turns crows into powder at 200 yards. i also have a M700 remmington .280 mt rifle. that is also a really nice gun. it'll drop a in its tracks. i have a Simons atec on both guns. one black and one silver to match the barrel. im pretty sure they r 3x9 dont quote me on the i didnt really look to see. but they are very clear and like i said i can see a crow at 200 yards and powder him i think its a pretty good scope. good luck hope u find the one thats right for you
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AlvinMack
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Quote:
But......Ballistics on the short mags are better.
The performance gained between the two is marginal at best. It's more of a marketing hype than anything. Remember, projectiles leaving a barrel cannot defy gravity nor do they remember what case they came out of (IE: 7mm WSM, 300 WSM, etc). I created a ballistic chart that will show the contrasting differences between the two with *ALL* things being equal.
I also took the M77® Mark II Standard in 7mm WSM and calculated that it has 31 foot-pounds of recoil energy, where in the same rifle but in 7mm Remington Mag it has 27 foot-pounds of recoil.
I think the biggest factor that almost everyone overlooks is the high pressures being created by these short mags. Knowing on a standard rifle when I touch the trigger I have roughly 50K of pressure lighting off in front of my face is scary enough, much less 65,000 PSI. Yes the chances are having a rifle let go is relatively rare, but the chances are compounded when pressure is raised exponentially.
Here is loading data between the two, velocity gained is about 50FPS, very marginal.
7MM WINCHESTER SHORT MAGNUM CASE: WINCHESTER
BBL: 24" PR: WINCHESTER LRM
TWIST: 1:9.5" TRIM: 2.096"
162 GR. HDY BTSP (Maximum Loads) DIA. .284" COL: 2.860"
RETUMBO 70.5C 3007 62,500 PSI
H1000 69.0C 2969 63,400 PSI
H4831 62.0 2915 62,800 PSI
H4350 58.0 2909 62,900 PSI
7MM REMINGTON MAGNUM
CASE: WINCHESTER
BBL: 24"
PR: WINCHESTER LR
TWIST: 1:9.5"
TRIM: 2.490"
162 GR. HDY SPBT
COL: 3.290"
RETUMBO 73.5C 2963 50,500 CUP
H1000 70.0 2905 49,600 CUP
H4831 64.0 2871 49,800 CUP
H4350 58.0 2799 49,400 CUP
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Dobber
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the short powder train is suppose to be more accurate, remember the ppc,3o8,243,ect.thats what some of the rage is about. plus you can get it in a shorter action rifle with no belt.
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muskyman
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Ok Mack with all of that you just confused me!  I know your more up on guns than I but all I was saying is....as a customer looking to buy a rifle, we'll say you have a 270 WSM and a 270 Win., one in each hand and wondering which one to buy, and your going to be shooting factory ammo, the WSM is the way to go. See if I can get this on here.
Take a look at the 150 Nosler Bal. Tip, just for comparison. The WSM at the muzzle is almost 200FPS faster and 380 FP's stronger. www.cpcartridge.com/270winB.htm and www.cpcartridge.com270wsmB.htm If I was looking at this at buying time, I would opt on the WSM. Just so you know I'm not trying to be an
Brad
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AlvinMack
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muskyman,
I know its a good healthy debate, but that ballistics table you referenced IMHO excluded all of the important data that tells me how they got to that number. I feel the data is in your url very compromised, the numbers are far too general. Please go back and reference ballistic tables from credible sources such as:
http://www.hodgdon.com
http://www.accuratepowder.com/
http://www.federalcartridge.com/default.asp?br=1
http://www.lapua.com/smokeless.htm
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/
Dobber,
As for Short Mags being more accurate, all I have to say is the rifle (lock, stock, and barrel) is what makes your accuracy, not the cartridge
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muskyman
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Mack, hey thanks for the reassurance, your Federal link just backed my data but Federal has the difference between the 2 even more skued towards the WSM. And yes it is a good debate...kind of like the "what is killing power?" FPS or FP's. I don't know if either is better than the other but I would say I would rather be shooting the lighter-flatter bullet! So Mack what's your take on that one
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Dobber
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well,yes and no. the case is still very important for accuracy. we could debate this alot. if you look at benchrest shooters,you will see the PPC,308 ect. you wont see the 270,25-06,ect. I own a 270 that shoots very well,but I wont take it to a shoot. My rem 700 VLS in 243 is another story.My opinion, 700 remington or winchester 70 in any caliber you can shoot well and is big enough.
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AlvinMack
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Quite candidly I do understand your point, however are we talking hunting accuracy or benchrest accuracy? All things being equal within the rifle I think most shooters would be hard pressed to see the difference between the two cartridges unbelted mag or belted mag (IE: Action, Barrel, Scope Mounts, and Scope). We’ll agree to disagree, I’m no expert by any means just offering my opinion based on my own experiences and a collaboration of riflesmiths I’ve met along the way
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AlvinMack
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Muskyman,
I just want you to consider one item. Lets say the difference between a 7MM Rem Mag and a 700WSM is say 5" flatter at 400YDS. A big trophy Bull stomps out of the timber, you set up to shoot. Do you honestly think your human error is less than that, no matter how tight your setup to shoot? I know mine isn't 
Good debate bud! Btw, let me know if you have any free time this summer, I want to take you up the first 20 miles of the Chippewa
-Mike
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Dobber
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Well said alvin mack. My shooting buddies and I argue all the time, its all good natured fun. This is the way the gun makers get to sell us more guns,new calibers and gadgets. I still say shoot as big a caliber that you can handle and shoot acurately.
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Prieser
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Quote:
kind of like the "what is killing power?" FPS or FP's.
So this is the whole point of my question. I have a 7MM, if I remember right the biggest grain is 180. Yes it will kill an elk, but if I am 350 yards out with a poor placement (shoulder blade) I don't think it would have enough FP left to actually penetrate and make a killing shot. Not that this my plan of course, I don't know if a 300 or a 338 would kill the animal either. But I would have a lot better chance at a kill with one of these guns. So after reading all your responses, I am pretty much leaning towards the standard shell. Thanks for all the responses guys. 
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"The biggest thing to remember is 'Don't Panic'"
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