Buck Wacker
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3 years ago I started hunting with a 270 WSM that my dad bought for me. The problem I'm having is that out of the 4 Deer that I have shot with it. Only 1 dropped at the point of impact. The other 3 all went 40-60 yards before dropping. To make matters worse all three of those deer did not leave any blood trail from the point of impact to where the deer dropped. I'm currently shooting 150 grain Ballistic Silvertip ammo. The three deer in question were all shot at rather close range ( Less than 50 yards ) I believe that the problem I'm having is that at close range the ammo is moving so fast that it does not expand enough to do much damage. All three hits were good ( Going through the vitals ) I have been lucky and have been able to see or hear all three deer fall but I'm worried one of these times I will not and have a hard time recovering the deer. The locations I'm hunting are such that my shoots may be anywhere from 20 yards out to 400+ yards that is why I chose the Ballistic Silvertips. I really like the way the gun shoots and want to keep shooting it. My question is is there any other ammo that I could use to get better knockdown and more of a good blood trail. I see that the other 150 grain bullet that Winchester offers for it is a super X Powerpoint. Would that ammo offer better expansion or is there another ammo choice that would be better to switch to. Thanks in advance for all of your thoughts and input. Good luck to all and BE SAFE !!!!!
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Wade
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I've shot different types of bullets in .270 and I have had deer run 40+ yards, last year my buck ran across 160+ acres with a good shot. I am not sure if it's the grain or caliber but when I was shooting my 30-06 I didn't notice much for tracking or running after the shot.
I would be interested to find out as well but I know with my .270 from a 30yd shot to a 300yd shot it does the job.
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ruger2506
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Quote:
3 years ago I started hunting with a 270 WSM that my dad bought for me. The problem I'm having is that out of the 4 Deer that I have shot with it. Only 1 dropped at the point of impact. The other 3 all went 40-60 yards before dropping. To make matters worse all three of those deer did not leave any blood trail from the point of impact to where the deer dropped. I'm currently shooting 150 grain Ballistic Silvertip ammo. The three deer in question were all shot at rather close range ( Less than 50 yards ) I believe that the problem I'm having is that at close range the ammo is moving so fast that it does not expand enough to do much damage. All three hits were good ( Going through the vitals ) I have been lucky and have been able to see or hear all three deer fall but I'm worried one of these times I will not and have a hard time recovering the deer. The locations I'm hunting are such that my shoots may be anywhere from 20 yards out to 400+ yards that is why I chose the Ballistic Silvertips. I really like the way the gun shoots and want to keep shooting it. My question is is there any other ammo that I could use to get better knockdown and more of a good blood trail. I see that the other 150 grain bullet that Winchester offers for it is a super X Powerpoint. Would that ammo offer better expansion or is there another ammo choice that would be better to switch to. Thanks in advance for all of your thoughts and input. Good luck to all and BE SAFE !!!!!
Buck,
Take those ballistic tips and throw them as far out into the lake as you can. I've been reloading for years and I can tell you this. For 99% of the jobs out there, ballistic tip bullets are not a good bullet. Now, the new Sirocco 2 is a pretty decent ballistic tip round.
1st question: Is there an exit wound on these deer? That would be my first thought, bullet expanding to fast and "exploding" on impact. Not retaining bullet weight sufficient enough to make an exit wound.
If there is an exit wound, what does the hole look like? How about entrance? How's the hole look?
Unless you are a competition shooter, the ballistic tip is not a necessity to shoot 400 yards. I shoot well over 400 yards a lot and I hardly ever shoot a ballistic tip.
My favorite (go to bullet) is the swift A-frame.
It is possible you never hit any bone. If that's the case at the velocity your are pushing those bullets. It's entirely possible it is not expanding.
Having what info you provided, those are the things that jump out at me.
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ruger2506
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Another thought. Over the years I've changed my attitude on shot placement. I used to shoot where the blue dot is. I think most people still shoot here. All ribs and vitals. Definitely a fatal shot, but the animal will usually run.
I've adjusted my attitude after a fair amount of research. Now I shoot where the red dot is. Just above the shoulder blade between the shoulder and the spine. In this scenario, the bullet will hit both lungs AND shock the spine. The deer will drop in it's tracks. By the time it regains it's spinal function, it has died from a lung shot. No tracking, quicker kill.
For this I've switched over to a bullet that expands a little slower so I don't ruin any meat. Hence the Swift A-Frame.
I've been lucky enough to harvest many deer over the last few years. I haven't had to track any of them. They didn't take 1 step.
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"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
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Wade
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interesting Ruger, I will have to try that if I can get a chance this weekend at a deer 
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Joel Nelson
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This is a very interesting discussion, and Ruger brought up a point that's been on the tip of my fingers for some time.
The shot he describes has been called the "hump" area, as evidenced by the somewhat noticeable hump at the top of the deer's back. Aiming for this spot also includes major arteries that feed the brain with blood just below the spine, and is near the spine at is widest (largest) spot. Most of the TV dropped kills you see are these shots.
We use shotguns, which aren't quite as accurate as I'd like for the longer shots to try this "hump" area. The wider margin of error allowed with your avg. behind the shoulder shot still kills the deer very dead, esp. with 385 gr. bullets of almost any variety.
That said, if I was rifle hunting with a good rest and was confident in my shooting, this is where I'd be aiming for every gunshot.
Joel
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Joel Nelson
IDO Hunting Pro-Staff
Quaker Boy Game Calls Pro-Staff
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ruger2506
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interesting Ruger, I will have to try that if I can get a chance this weekend at a deer
Good luck this weekend.
I would like to add. It is a much tighter window with less room for error. If you can pull it off though, you'll be happy with the results.
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"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
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ruger2506
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Quote:
This is a very interesting discussion, and Ruger brought up a point that's been on the tip of my fingers for some time.
The shot he describes has been called the "hump" area, as evidenced by the somewhat noticeable hump at the top of the deer's back. Aiming for this spot also includes major arteries that feed the brain with blood just below the spine, and is near the spine at is widest (largest) spot. Most of the TV dropped kills you see are these shots.
We use shotguns, which aren't quite as accurate as I'd like for the longer shots to try this "hump" area. The wider margin of error allowed with your avg. behind the shoulder shot still kills the deer very dead, esp. with 385 gr. bullets of almost any variety.
That said, if I was rifle hunting with a good rest and was confident in my shooting, this is where I'd be aiming for every gunshot.
Joel
All valid points Joel. That's where my interest in the shot came from (TV). These guys making 400+ and even a couple 800-900 yard shots and the animals fell in their tracks. So I spent a fair amount of time learning about the "hump" shot.
I agree about the accuracy issue. For the deer hunters that I call the pie plate hunters (shoot at the range right before season and are happy to hit a pie plate at 100 yards) I would not recommend this shot.
For shooters that attempt better accuracy, this is a great option. My dad and I have a contest to see who can shoot the tightest group. He's winning with a 1 9/16" group at 300 yards. My uncle has him beat with a 1 7/16" group at 300 yards. Best I've done so far is 1 3/4" at 300. I'll get them yet.
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"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
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MossBoss
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Quote:
Another thought. Over the years I've changed my attitude on shot placement. I used to shoot where the blue dot is. I think most people still shoot here. All ribs and vitals. Definitely a fatal shot, but the animal will usually run.
I've adjusted my attitude after a fair amount of research. Now I shoot where the red dot is. Just above the shoulder blade between the shoulder and the spine. In this scenario, the bullet will hit both lungs AND shock the spine. The deer will drop in it's tracks. By the time it regains it's spinal function, it has died from a lung shot. No tracking, quicker kill.
For this I've switched over to a bullet that expands a little slower so I don't ruin any meat. Hence the Swift A-Frame.
I've been lucky enough to harvest many deer over the last few years. I haven't had to track any of them. They didn't take 1 step.
Man, I was all set to type that myself and you did it for me!!! I shoot a .270, about 4 or 5 years ago I went from a ballistic tip to a Nosler Accubond bullet. The accubond is basically a bonded ballistic tip. It is designed to expand and shed about 35% of it's weight while retaining 65% or so for penetration. It is actually MORE accurate for me than the ballistic tip was, and the terminal performance has been excellent.
I also started shooting a bit high and found it knocked them out STONE COLD if you hit it right. My first one was a doe in a field that was flat on the ground before my scope was back on the deer after recoil. Everyone I have hit in this location hasn't moved more than 5 feet. It DOES give you a smaller window to hit, so I usually take it only if I have a good rest at a stationary deer. But it is an excellent shot.
Try a Accubond (both Federal and Winchester factory load it for a 270 WSM) and you will love it.
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DeanoB
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Personally I will never shoot large game with anything smaller than a 30 cal. I KNOW a 270 is a good caliber, and will kill large game BUT just my preference. My first rifle was a .270, I grew up in Montana. The .270 was for gophers, jackrabbits, yotes, and antelope.
I switched over to Hornady factory loads a few years back, and love them. I really like the SST. They make it in many calibers including 12 guage sabots and 140gr .270. I would try them, you aren't getting much over 300 yards but, if your kills are closer than that usually, no worries.
as for shot placement, I agree the hump is the best target for those perfect broadsise shots, when you have a good rest and can hold steady. can be an iffy shot offhand, or when you are winded after walking or however the scenario can go down.
i know it costs money but go buy a few boxes of ammo and shoot them to determine which may be a suitable option.
good luck
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ruger2506
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Try a Accubond (both Federal and Winchester factory load it for a 270 WSM) and you will love it.
I'm not sure if Nosler has changed the recipe for the Accubond, but I've found that the Accubond actually expanded to fast and was a horribly destructive bullet. It worked, no question.
Dad shot a nice doe at 212 yards out in Montana out of his 270 loaded hot with Accubonds. We were pushing them at 3127 ft/sec.
That bullet almost literally cut that deer in half. Literally, you could have thrown a football through that deer. It was nasty, I'd never seen anything like that. We stopped using that and switched to the Sirocco 2 for that rifle.
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Suzuki
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Little to do with your gun and lot to do with shot placement. If you put your bullet where you put an arrow the deer is going to run. 50-100 yds is what I seen everytime I double lung one with my 30-06. If you want them to drop then its neck or shoulder. BUT, shoulder destroys some good sausage meet so I would only consider that if there were nearby hunters. Neck drops em and lots of guys take this shot. You just have to be a good shot and confident in your ability. Of course spine will do it too but that not really a targetable aimpoint. More often than not its an accident. All of this my opinion based on my experience.
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Mike
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MossBoss
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Quote:
Quote:
Try a Accubond (both Federal and Winchester factory load it for a 270 WSM) and you will love it.
I'm not sure if Nosler has changed the recipe for the Accubond, but I've found that the Accubond actually expanded to fast and was a horribly destructive bullet. It worked, no question.
Dad shot a nice doe at 212 yards out in Montana out of his 270 loaded hot with Accubonds. We were pushing them at 3127 ft/sec.
That bullet almost literally cut that deer in half. Literally, you could have thrown a football through that deer. It was nasty, I'd never seen anything like that. We stopped using that and switched to the Sirocco 2 for that rifle.
It ceratinly makes a bigger hole than a A-Frame, X-Bullet, or the like, but I've never seen THAT much damage. I guess I'm shooting factory loads at 2970 listed (so likely slower), but I've hit em at 30 yards and not had that kinda of destructon. I had one with a slightly bigger than golfball sized hole on the backsideof the shoulder is the biggest.
The one thing I have NOT had yet was a failure to go through and through like with ballistic tips or standard cup and core ammo..
I heard the Sciroccos were not as accurate, how are the Scirocco 2's?
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ruger2506
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I heard the Siroccos were not as accurate, how are the Sirocco 2's?
The original Siroccos were garbage. Had some friends use them in New Zealand on Red Stag. My one friend had shot a red stag (cull animal) twice in the vitals and twice in the head and it was still struggling and at risk of rolling over the edge of the cliff. He got upset and pulled out some Trophy Bonded Bearclaw rounds he loaded. One shot and it was over.
Of course those bearclaws are unreal. Very hard bullet with very slow expansion.
Anyhow, Swift realized this and changed the recipe. Shooting the Sirocco 2, we have been very happy with the results. Swift fixed the problem with the first version. Now they perform a little more like the A-Frame as far as expansion. They hold together well and don't expand to rapidly.
I think they changed the Accubond recipe as well and slowed their expansion down as well.
What we found (early 2000's), Sirocco 1, Nosler Partition, Remington Cor-Lokt, and the like were all made for more traditional rifles/loadings. Pushing bullets under the 2900 ft/sec range. It seems anything over 2900 ft/sec requires a new makeup. We had a lot of bullets fail before we realized this.
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"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
Edited by ruger2506 (11/11/09 12:48 PM)
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Buck Wacker
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Some excellent thoughts and Info. Keep it comming. I'm sure that the ballistic silvertip is probably the wrong ammo for the situation. But I think my shotplacement is probably part of the problem as well. I usually try to place my shot right behind the front shoulder. I usually hit where I aim so I may have to give that Hump shot a try. the gun I shot prior to this 270 WSM was a 375 Winchester. In the 20+ years that I used that gun only 2 deer did not drop at the point of Impact and those left a blood trail a blind man could have followed. However after 100 yard a cannon was probably more accurate. To answer the ? about what the bullet hole looks like - It is about the same size on both the enterence hole at the exit hole ( Thus why I think the bullet is not expanding enough ) The buck I shot this last weekend did hit the front shoulder bone. ? on that Hump shot - Does that placement do alot of damage to the chops / backstraps? It looks like it would. I think the answer is to change ammo and tweek my shot placement a little. Thanks again for all the Info. and thoughts.
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ruger2506
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? on that Hump shot - Does that placement do alot of damage to the chops / backstraps? It looks like it would.
If you use a bullet that is slow to expand, you will not ruin any meat. Slower expanding bullets only tend to ruin meat that they physicially touch. Tuck that sucker in there and avoid touching the backstraps and shoulder and you'll have a dead deer with no lost meat.
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"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
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Ben Dvoracek
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I had some issues like that with my 7mm. Using lead ammo at close range my bullet would explode on impact. I have tried most variety's like ballistic tips, noslers, bear claws, you name it. 2 years ago I switched to Barnes bullets and have had extremely great results and will likely never go back to lead bullets. The performance and accuracy are great! The only down side is that they cost a lot. But I can guarantee if you have never tried them and do, you WILL love them.
Check them out!
http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/
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Ben Dvoracek
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RageRunner
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Little to do with your gun and lot to do with shot placement. If you put your bullet where you put an arrow the deer is going to run. 50-100 yds is what I seen everytime I double lung one with my 30-06. If you want them to drop then its neck or shoulder. BUT, shoulder destroys some good sausage meet so I would only consider that if there were nearby hunters. Neck drops em and lots of guys take this shot. You just have to be a good shot and confident in your ability. Of course spine will do it too but that not really a targetable aimpoint. More often than not its an accident. All of this my opinion based on my experience.
X2
I never pass a good neck shot with any gun.
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ruger2506
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Loc: SE Minnesota
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Quote:
I had some issues like that with my 7mm. Using lead ammo at close range my bullet would explode on impact. I have tried most variety's like ballistic tips, noslers, bear claws, you name it. 2 years ago I switched to Barnes bullets and have had extremely great results and will likely never go back to lead bullets. The performance and accuracy are great! The only down side is that they cost a lot. But I can guarantee if you have never tried them and do, you WILL love them.
Check them out!
http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/
Good point Ben. The Barnes X bullet is a very good bullet as well. Especially for most guys shooting factory loads. The problem we've had there is when you push bullets to the calibers max velocity, you can copper foul a barrel. I've had limited success with Barnes for this reason. Another problem is that copper is so much lighter than lead, the bullets need to be that much longer just to maintain ballistic coefficient.
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"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
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MossBoss
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Loc: La Crosse, WI
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Quote:
Quote:
Little to do with your gun and lot to do with shot placement. If you put your bullet where you put an arrow the deer is going to run. 50-100 yds is what I seen everytime I double lung one with my 30-06. If you want them to drop then its neck or shoulder. BUT, shoulder destroys some good sausage meet so I would only consider that if there were nearby hunters. Neck drops em and lots of guys take this shot. You just have to be a good shot and confident in your ability. Of course spine will do it too but that not really a targetable aimpoint. More often than not its an accident. All of this my opinion based on my experience.
X2
I never pass a good neck shot with any gun.
Really? I've always thought of the neck shot as pretty risky and never had confidence in making it for sure.
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